Posts by moggy lover

9

"Jehovah" in the NWT OT

by Doug Mason in

once more i look to the jwd brains trust for assistance and information.. over the years, much has been discussed and written on the wtss use of the jehovah in its nwt translation of the christian greek scriptures (new testament, or nt).

[page 343] the divine name jehovah is used at the 6,823 places of the occurrence of the tetragrammaton and in some one hundred and thirty-four other cases of emendation.

what do these tell us about the translator of the nwt ot?.

moggy lover

All the oldest and best MSS of the Hebrew Bible have, on every page, beside the actual text of Scripture, which is usually arranged in two or more columns, a varying number of lines of smaller writing, distributed between the upper and lower margins. This smaller writing is called the "Massorah" There are two types of Massorah. Those on the upper and lower margins are called the Massorah Magna or "Great Massorah" and those in between the columns are called the "Massorah Parva" or "Lesser Massorah".

Evidently this word "Massorah" is derived from a Hebrew root word "Mas'ar" meaning "To deliver something into the hand of another" so as to commit it to that person's trust. the implication being that the information contained in these two "Massorahs" contained information necessary to those who were entrusted with preserving the text of Scripture through the process of copying. Most of these notes, or Massorah placed in and around the text were textual in nature, sometimes even counting the number of times a certain letter occured in the text, so that a future copyist may allign the text exactly according to the source material he was using.

Sometimes, as Narkissos has said these notes were doctrinal in nature when it was perceived that the text, in its original may have implied some degree of disrespect to Yahweh. There are 134 passages where the ancient copyists of the Sacred Text, the Sopherim, said that they emmended the text to replace the Tetragrammaton with "Adonai" because they felt that the original reading threathened the integrity of Yahweh's soverignity.

We owe a debt of gratitude to Dr David Ginsburg, who was born in 1831 in Poland, and who emigrated to the UK in 1841, after his conversion to Christianity from Judaism for his tremendous labour over the ancient Hebrew text. Although he died in 1914, he is still regarded in the UK, at least, as the greatest scholar on the Massorah ever. It is he who listed all the 134 occurences of the Sopherim Emmendations.

If you take a look at the Hebrew text as we have it today, at Josh 7:8, it would read, in English as "O Lord, what can I say since Israel has turned [their] backs before their enemies" [NASV] this is because the text says "Adonai" but the Massorah, in the upper margin will have a note saying: "This is one of the emmendations of the Sofferim" thus suggesting that the original reading may have been "YHWH" at this verse. Assuming the emmendation to be correct, the NWT in contrast, has "Excuse me, Jehovah" I rather suspect that it was precisely because of such applaing translation skills, that the Sopherim may have removed the Tetragramm from here. They hated the idea of such human familiarity with the Deity.

It is not possible to determine the extent of the ancient copyists accuracy in their emmendations, and Ginsburg himself made no comment on such veracity, as a result, all translators feel that the text should be rendered as to how it has been preserved till today. That is why translators today say "Lord" not LORD at Josh 7:8. There is one edition of the KJV, however, published in the late 19th C by a renegade extreme Dispensationalist, named Ethelbert Bullinger, whose edition reads like a Massorah, considering his notes, which actually reads as "LORD" here. The similarity in quotations between Bullinger's edition and the NWT makes it certain the Franz had this volume before him.

It is beyond the scope of this limited post, to list all the 134 emmendations, but here are some:

Num 14:17, Josh 7:8, Jud 6:15, 13:8, 1K 3:10, 3:15, 22:6, 2K 7:6, 19:23, Isaiah 3:17, 3:18, 4:4, 6:1, 6:8, 6:11, 7:14, 7:20, 8:7, 9:8, 9:17, 10:12, 11:11, 21:6, 21:8, 21:16, 28:2, 29:13, 30:20, 37:24, 38:14, 38:16, 49:14 etc. The complete list of 134 emmendations is available in the NWT with References, pg 1563. If you dont have acess to this volume, pm me and I'll send you the complete list. You will have to promise your wife that you'll wash the dishes for at least a week though!

In addition to emmending the text from YHWH to Adonai in 134 places, Ginsburg found 8 additional places where the ancient copyists emmended the text from YHWH to "Elohim" These were at: Ps 14:1,2,5; 53:1,2,4,5,6. Most translators will read "God" here but Franz "restored" the Tetramgamm making these texts read "jehovah"

To be frank, I don't know why Franz bothered bringing out an interlinear NT, when his argument would best have been served by bringing out an interlinear OT. He could have had a field day with his copious notes justifying his renderings, rather than relying on special pleading as he had to resort to in his NT.

Cheers

28

Is. 2:2 My analysis..what's yours?

by NewTruth in

so, here's the scripture:.

2:2 in the last days, the mountain of the lord's temple will be established as chief among the hills, and all nations will stream to it.

many peoples will come and say, "come, let us go up to the mountain of the lord, to the house of the god of jacob.

moggy lover

My own personal feeling is that prophecy is a subject that is best left alone, or at least, left in the hands of those professional theologians who are willing to stick their necks out, on the line by interpreting prophecy. The lessons learned from the WT experience of Bible prophesying should have taught us that this is a hazadous occupation, at best.

I feel that if there is a prophecy mentioned in the OT, which has clearly been fulfilled, then there simply is no need to trace any further meaning in that prophecy. This applies to such a prophecy as that mentioned in Dan 4, regarding the "seven times" Since the Bible itself has said that all the prophecy was fulfilled in king Nebuchadnezzar, to then give it a further meaning, as the WTS does, making it pertinent to our times, no less, is patently absurd. In my opinion, of course.

In prophecies such as those that may have more than one meaning, the first having been fulfilled in the past, then the second meaning must rest on Scripture alone. As Doug mentioned earlier, if no NT writer has indicated a fulfillment in a certain time frame, then to make that second application fit into a theologically moulded framework, supporting a preconceived teaching, is false and smacks of cultism. This may apply to such a prophecy as Matt 24. If it does have a fulfillment beyond the timespan of Christ's words, then that second application must have a Bible approved interpretation. If the last Bible writer, the apostle John said nothing about when that second application was to be, then we can confidently be assured that the Bible canon has left that second application in the future, awaiting an authoratative interpretation by the Lord Himself at His Second Presence which is still in the future. There are those who regard all of Matt 24 having been fulfilled. Thats fine and part of legitimate Bible interpretation. There are others who feel that there is another fulfillment in the future. Well, thats fine as well, whether one agrees with that or not, because that too, is legitimate Bible study.

The exception comes when one applies that second application to our own present time, casting around for modren anecdotes to fit into this preconceived mould. As the examples of such as Herbert W Armstrong, or the WTS, who see themselves in that setting, have taught us, this is dangerous and ultimately futile. It is cultic in thinking. It also requires credulity, and not faith to accept.

The same is with the prophecy at hand, Isa 2. Oddly enough, I don't see any "first" fulfillment in either Isa himself, or in later Israelite history. It must therefore have a fulfillment futute to Isa. When? Dunno.

Reformed theology sees the "last days" as stretching down from the day of Pentecost, since many NT writers understood their times as in some way the "last days" - Isa 2 may therefore belong to Church history, or at least the 1C AD for its fulfillment.

Dispensational theology sees the last days as still in the future, involving the Millennium. If this is so, [I am a dispensationalist myself] then Isa 2 must have a millennial fulfillment with some form of future Israelite assendancy being outlined. If again, this is so, then the details await further, authorative clarification.

But to give it a present day application, complete with out-of-context other prophecies from other parts of the Bible, having no connection whatever is again cultic. Personally, I would avoid such a perilous and uncertain understanding. One never knows.... one may begin to see oneself in Scripture, as Russell, Rutherford, Franz and Armstrong did.

And look where it got them

Cheers

6

Heard any good anecdotes a JW?

by tioga joe in

i got a chuckle out of one of the past messages that related the story of a person in desperate need praying to god for help just as a jw knocked on the door.

i had heard that one myself, too.. so it got me to thinking about "jw anecdotes" we all have heard.

one i heard from my visiting witness was during a "study" on how we must obey god's word even when man's word says not to.

moggy lover

I am not entirely sure that this is what you are looking for, but here goes: It concerns an incident that occured to me while going boor-to-door, several years ago. I was a young 'un then and living in India, where I was born of mixed British-Indian parentage.

Anyway, there I was, with this elderly missionary lady, and we happened to call on a door that was opened by this rather portly, magnificently bewhiskered Sikh gentleman. In deference to the missionary, I allowed her to have this first call, and so she began her WT pitch. In a rash attempt to explain herself in Hindustani, a language she was ill equiped to handle, and casting around for an appropriate analogy to illustrate her point, she dramatically unfurled her umbrella, a constant companion I might add, and quoted: "God is our knickers that we need to get into to gain his protectionl!"

To my embarrasment, and the understandable bewilderment of our householder, I quietly explained that, quite inadvertantly, the lady had mispronounced the word for umbrella [chatri] using instead the word for ladies underwear [chadi]

Damned if the old coot did'nt take a stackful of WT mags, labouring no doubt under the misaprehension that somehow by reading them he could get into the Almighty's panties.

Now lets see... if I hold the mag this way.... and lift my right leg that way.....

Cheers

25

1 Pet 3:18 & 1 Cor. 15:45--resurrection

by M.J. in

in citing 1 pet 3:18, the wts says christ being made alive "in the spirit" means he became a spirit.

but does being raised "in the spirit" mean the same as being raised "as a spirit"?

my thought is that in the nt, when one is "in" something or someone, it describes the realm that person is in.

moggy lover

Hi, You have raised some interesting points that become entangled with both theology and Greek grammar, and how one untangles this is the product of interpretive problems. Let's take your Scripture citations seperately:

1 As far as 1P3:18 is concerned the problem is that we do not have the word "in" [Greek EN] occuring at this text. as a look at the KIT will show, the text has the word Pneuma" [Spirit] in a particular grammatical form called the "Dative" construction.This construction allows the word "Pneuma" to be written as "Pneuma-ti" and then there follows the tangle of trying to translate this one word. In English the Dative construction can be expressed with the use of four seperate words called "modal auxillaries" These four are: "in" "by" "for" or "to" so in this case at this text we have four possibilities: "in the Spirit" "by the Spirit" "for the Spirit" and "to the Spirit" [Don't let the presence of the article distract you. The dative always implies the article For instance "ev Arche" in Greek is most naturally expressed as "In the Beginninig in English]

Since the word "to" suggests an indirect object, almost all translators reject the translation of "to the Spirit" here, this despite the KIT insisting on using "to" in the interlinear. Since "for" suggests a reflexive action, that too is almost universally rejected.

This leaves us with the two options of "by" and "in" So which is the correct usage here? Translators are almost equally divided, although a larger percentage favour the latter. The KJV, NIV NKJV and even one once published by the WTS, the Emphatic Diaglott says "by". In fact the NWT has itself translated "Pneumati" with "By" at Mar 2:8, so they can hardly complain if someone does so here. If "by" is the preferred translation, then the meaning is clear: That the Holy Spirit, as God, raised Jesus from the dead. Naturally, the WTS leadership would rather have their most precious limbs torn away, than bend the knee to that concept.

So they stick with the alternative. But no one would be so reckless as to state that the dative construction can be rendered with "As" hence implying that Christ was resurrected "AS" a spirit. As you have shown, being "In the spirit", like being "In love" does not negate the idea of physicalality. The WT leadership state that had Jesus taken up His body of flesh and blood, then this would have negated His ransom, since He is taking something back, that He had already given. This can easily be refuted in at least two ways: He also ransomed us with His life, not just His blood, so had Jesus taken His life back as well, that too, would negate the ransom. Another point is that it appears that Jesus did not take His blood back. When He was crucified, He spilled His blood for us, and that indicates that it fulfilled its purpose. When He was resurrected, there is no indication that His resurrected body had blood in it. We know His new body contained "flesh" and "bones" [Lu 24:39] Now, 1P3:18, indicates that there was a third elrment in the resurrection body, and that is "spirit" To use an illustration, If you cut Jesus' skin before He died, the element that would have poured out would have been blood, but now with the Resurrection body, if you happened, theoretically, to cut His skin, the element that would pour out will be "spirit". It is this element that makes the Resurrection body such a marvellous intrument.

It is trans dimensional in that it exists outside the restraints of physical laws. Jesus appeared in a closed room. He did'nt "walk" through walls, as the WTS leadership so ignorantly claims. He just existed there. He chose to appear and then chose to disappear. In the Assension, He lifted away from the sight of His disciples, and then He was in heaven. He did not "travel" there. He just was. It is this marvellous body that can exist in heaven as well. It is a body of "flesh" "bones" and "spirit" and you know what? Paul tells us that that body is one that is promised to all believers. Not just an ignorant 144k! [Phi 3:21]

This new kind of body, of which we know nothing, is called a "glorious" body by the NWT translator, "Body of glory" by others like NASV It is what awaits believers. Imagine a body that can hear in a transdimensioal state, that can see clours far beyond the physical spectrum!

This is what the NWS leadership is robbing their followers of.

2 Now in the light of the above, yes - there is a sense in which Jesus is a spirit. But that is not all He is. The entire context of 1Cor 15 is talking about the resurrection of the body. The WTS leadership disputes this because the word "body" is not mentioned in the section of vss 42 - 58. Well,actually it is, but in a different way. For instance, 1Cor 15:53 says "That which is mortal must take on immortality" What is "That which is mortal"? Ro 8:11 refers this to the BODY. The Bible nowhere talks about resurrected " ghosts" or even "spirits" So the resurrection that Jesus experienced was that mentioned in 1Cor 15. His "mortal" body [it was "mortal" since it could be killed] took on immortality, and the process that allowed that was that He was imbued with "spirit" . Being the first to taste of this phenomenon, He became "life giving" also to us. So, being a "life giving" spirit, did not inhibit His being flesh as well.

It is this resurrected body that will be seen again when He returns, in visible form.

It is this body that all believers will enjoy throughout all eternity. They will exist on earth, if need be, as well in the most Holy of heaven, and anywhere in all spatial creation. Christ promises nothing less for all who believe.

Cheers

5

Errors of Russellism PDF

by cabasilas in

came across the book "errors of russellism" the other day.

it was published in 1915 and is a critique of russell's theology.

it has quite a few quotes from russell's works and is quite interesting from an historical point of view.

moggy lover

Thanks mate, downloaded and safe in the bowels of my HD.

Cheers

42

Aus Bethel 06 Annual Report - INCREDIBLE 50% DECREASE in donations

by jwfacts in

i just purchased the 2006 annual report for the australian watchtower bible and tract society.

below are the highlights.

most incredible is that donations dropped by almost 50%, from 15 million dollars to only 10 million dollars.

moggy lover

I think that we are seeing how the WTS is reaping the whirlwind of what they sowed. By discouraging the pursuit of higher education among their young several years ago, they are now confronted by those youngsters as full grown adults. With a significant lack of acedemic skills, for which many were doubtless capable, those same adults are virtually marginalized in the lower wage bracket. Low wages may make willing sellers of WT literature, but bad donators. In these times when all must count costs, I think donating to a cause that is slowly being seen as lost would rank pretty low on a person's list of things to do.

Lets see... How many WT followers are there in Aussie? .... 80,000?..... Thereabouts?

OK, if those 80k WT followers gave 10M to the society, then I reckon that makes, on an average, some 125 bucks a year which comes down to $2.25 a week. Yep... I gues that's about all the average R&F member would think his religious org is worth.

Rather than be seen as unseemly and make crass demands for more cash, their interests will best be served by revising their policy on higher education. Sure they will lose some to "higher criticism", but they will eventually end up with a better financially enfranchised workforce, who will in turn be better able to donate big bucks. Of course it wont be felt overnight it will involve at least a generation for this to take effect.

I think that is something the Mormon leadership grasped early. Don't their missionaries get a subsidized college education after serving three years? With a higher-than average income membership they are obviously getting larger donations.

Anyway, whatever, the point about the WTS is that they must be recoiling in horror at their lost fortunes. Poor Nathan Gnaw, he so loved to see graphs going increasingly upwards in all departments, like sales, donations, increasing membership, leading to more sales, more donations, increasingly more membership and so on. Poor sod must be rolling in his grave or wherever it is that departed WT leaders eventually wind up.

Cheers

27

Will there be death in paradise?

by Bob Loblaw in

so, from what i remember,...after armageddon, those righteous jw's who make it through will have to clean up the utter devestation.

imagine 9/11 on a world-wide scale.

they also (from what i remember) will not be miraculously perfect right away.

moggy lover

Evidently paradise will not be the schmaltzy, smashingly terrific place it is made out to be. Remember, that according to WT theology it will also be a "day of judgment" [This is despite the fact that Rev 20:12 describes the Judgment as coming after the Millennium -see vs7] in which "god's judicial decisions" will be exacted.

The "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth" book says, on pg 178 the following: "So after being given the opportunity to change their ways and to learn righteousness, such wicked ones will be destroyed.Some will be put to death even before Judgment Day ends"

To support this unbiblical assertion, the same pg cites, but does not quote, Isa 65:20. It becomes obvious why they did not actually quote this text. The chapter, evidently millennial in significance, nowhere describes any one as needing to be executed for wrongdoing during this period. It is merely describing the longevity of those living then. A longevity that is restored to mankind as before the flood.

Yep, if you don't die of boredom, you will probably be stoned, and I dont mean on drugs either.

Cheers

9

Who Will Survive---And Why?

by Sunspot in

we find where the wts editorial staff has written their opinions:.

"jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will.

to receive everlasting life in the earthly paradise we must identify that organization and serve god as part of it.".

moggy lover

The WTS has, with the slick use of semantics, been able to hurdle the dichcotmy between perception and reality. They would like to be perceived as a rational, pleasant, and impartial system of belief that sees all people as worthy of being saved through Armageddon. To this end, they indulge in such semantic niceties as suggesting that "All those who truly love Jehoover will survive" or even: "We do not judge who survives, only jehoover does this"

The reality of course is different. The corollary to the above is significant. The mechanism used to qualify one's love for this god, is neither rational nor impartial, it is purely theological, the detirminative factor being total obedience to the WTS

One can only truly love jehoofer by being in his organisation. No one outside the WT system is deemed a "true lover" of the WY god. And further, as "spokesmen" for this god, they speak for him. So, what they say is what he says. And they have already judged all those on the outside, ahemm, erm, including us, as non survivors.

Like lawers, politicians, and other snake oil salesmen, their attempts to deceive are hollow. The only ones who cannot differentiate between perception and reality are the dyed-in-the wool WT stalwarts, who will, of course believe anything they are told. Bless 'em

Cheers

58

How do JWs explain John 20:28?

by Zico in

much is made of john 1:1 in trinitarian discussions and there's a lot of debate over how it should be correctly translated, depending on your particular bias on the jesus god issue, but surely there is no scripture more clear that jesus is god than the one where thomas directly calls him god in john 20:28?

27next he said to thomas: put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.28in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

how do jehovah's witnesses deal with this scripture?

moggy lover

I'm not attempting to inject a sense of levity into this thread, but honestly, these are two of the ways older WT followers used to counter this text in my presence:

1 Thomas said: "My Lord, [and looking up to heaven] and my God"

But personally this one was always my favourite:

2 Thomas said: "[Oh] my Lord!! and [Oh] my God!!.... You mean those are real holes???"

Cheers

71

How'd you pick your Avatar and/or Username? (Share a little bio?)

by Open mind in

jw
friends

even though you might think it's painfully obvious, explain why you chose your avatar and/or username.

it could help us faceless "netizens" get to know each other a little better.

open mind.

moggy lover

My avatar and alias both come from the same source. She's right here in front of me snoozing on the monitor with her tail swaying gently so that it makes it impossible for me to see my screen.

Her name is Moggy, she has whiskers, salmon breath and is the spoiltest darn cat this side of anywhere.

Cheers